I'm planning a trip for mid-May from WHite Plains, NY (KHPN) to Santa
Fe, NM (KSF). I'm wondering if anyone here has made a similar flight
and has any advice for me.

I will be single-pilot IFR, will be flying a Beech Debonair and am
planning to file for a TAS of 165kts at 10,000'. I've broken the route
up into three legs of approximately 3.5 to 4 hours each.

Leg 1: HPN to Findlay, OH (KFDY) via SAX V188 FQM V226 CIP V30 DJB V14
FDY

Leg 2: FDY to Olathe, KS (KOJC) via FDY V38 MAPPS V233 CAP V50 UIN V116
MCM V424 ANX V10 OJC

Leg 3: OJC to Santa Fe via OJC V10 HUT V234 DHT V190 LVS V60 TAFOY SAF

I could fly lower for the first two legs, but the MEA after DHT on leg
3 requires 10,000'. I would like not to have to carry oxygen if I can
avoid it. Assuming decent weather is it ridiculous to think that this
trip can be made in one long day? I'm not at all adverse to stopping
for an overnight at OJC, but would like to try and do it in one day if
possible.

I'd appreciate any feedback on this. Do any of you who fly regularly
along this route see any "gotcha's" with this plan?

Thanks in advance...

Tom Fleischman > wrote:
>Leg 3: OJC to Santa Fe via OJC V10 HUT V234 DHT V190 LVS V60 TAFOY SAF
>
>I could fly lower for the first two legs, but the MEA after DHT on leg
>3 requires 10,000'. I would like not to have to carry oxygen if I can
>avoid it. Assuming decent weather is it ridiculous to think that this
>trip can be made in one long day? I'm not at all adverse to stopping
>for an overnight at OJC, but would like to try and do it in one day if
>possible.

If the weather is good, cancel IFR at Dalhart. Altho the MEAs list
are higher from LVS-TAFOY-SAF, you can do that entire leg at 8500 at
1000 AGL. Head SSW out of LVS to get around that little ridge, then
direct to TAFOY. The ILS will take you directly over the jail, so
don't mistake it for the airport.

Or you can stay on IFR at 10000 but the segment is only about 25-30
min in my cherokee 180.

Or go a bit further south out of LVS, then over TAFOY and never need
more than 8500.

And if you're going over HUT, why not stay over and visit the
aviation and space museum?

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Fleischman > wrote:
>>Leg 3: OJC to Santa Fe via OJC V10 HUT V234 DHT V190 LVS V60 TAFOY SAF
>>
>>I could fly lower for the first two legs, but the MEA after DHT on leg
>>3 requires 10,000'. I would like not to have to carry oxygen if I can
>>avoid it. Assuming decent weather is it ridiculous to think that this
>>trip can be made in one long day? I'm not at all adverse to stopping
>>for an overnight at OJC, but would like to try and do it in one day if
>>possible.
>
> If the weather is good, cancel IFR at Dalhart. Altho the MEAs list
> are higher from LVS-TAFOY-SAF, you can do that entire leg at 8500 at
> 1000 AGL. Head SSW out of LVS to get around that little ridge, then
> direct to TAFOY. The ILS will take you directly over the jail, so
> don't mistake it for the airport.
>
> Or you can stay on IFR at 10000 but the segment is only about 25-30
> min in my cherokee 180.
>
> Or go a bit further south out of LVS, then over TAFOY and never need
> more than 8500.
>
>
I used to live in Albuquerque and flew from there to Hays, KS and back a few
times. The Mt. Dora MOA is rarely active so if you have GPS (or clear VMC
and a sectional) you might save a few miles going through it, direct from
HUT to LVS. Just check with ATC along the way about the MOA status.
However, radar contact may be lost at the lower altitudes as you near New
Mexico's mountainous terrain so be sure you can stay high enough to be legal
if you want to stay IFR.

Also, if it's a windy day you can expect occasional moderate turbulence
rolling off the mountains once you enter New Mexico. Tighten up those seat
belts and shoulder harnesses and have a good flight!

At a groundspeed of 155 knots I get over 10 hours of flight time (1600
miles). You are going to typically have headwinds (but you never know,
I had tailwinds coming Maine to Colorado, THE WHOLE WAY), but I was
LUCKY and it was summer. Add in at least an hour for lunch and fuel
and THAT is one looong day. I wouldn't want to fly in IMC or at night
the last 200 miles of that trip. If it's IMC in the mountains of New
Mexico, it usually means ice, especially this time of year. Anyway, I
take it you aren't familiar with the terrain, so I don't think you want
to fly the last leg at night at all. It's great scenery, who wants to
fly after dark over such great scenery! I'd take it easy and do it in
two days and enjoy myself. No tellling ahead of time what the weather
will be, but as your trip approaches, start watching the frontal
systems and time your trip between fronts. It's the Southwest so it's
flyable more days than not, still it's iffy. Such a trip always depends
on the weather.

In article >, Tom Fleischman wrote:
> I'm planning a trip for mid-May from WHite Plains, NY (KHPN) to Santa
> Fe, NM (KSF). I'm wondering if anyone here has made a similar flight
> and has any advice for me.

I did HPN-BFI (Seattle) last year. Single pilot, but with a
non-pilot passenger (my Highly Significant Other). No specifics
on your route, but perhaps a few insights anyway.

> I will be single-pilot IFR, will be flying a Beech Debonair and am
> planning to file for a TAS of 165kts at 10,000'. I've broken the route
> up into three legs of approximately 3.5 to 4 hours each.

If you already know your route to that extent, you're already
overplanning things. The catchphase for my flight was, "Okay,
we need another plan". Fortunately, most of the time (but not
always), I was saying it on the ground. You need to check the
weather at each leg, and if the thunderstorms are to the North,
plan the route further South (and vice versa).

Make sure you have a full set of charts beyond what you think
you might need. We had one chart that covered the entire U.S.
which helped with our strategic planning every day.

Most of our trip there was IFR with a couple of VFR legs; the
return trip was mostly VFR with a couple of IFR legs.

Of the two inflight diversions, one was due to arriving at
the destination airport at the same time the thunderstorm
did. Rather than circle, we went to another nearby airport
that was clear. The other diversion was due to a failed
alternator (broken wire, fixed within the hour and we were
on our way).

4-hour legs will be taxing unless you have a cast-iron bladder.

Our first leg was 4 hours, HPN-AKR (Akron, OH), longer than
planned due to adverse winds. By the time we landed, we were
both feeling pretty beat up. Once I realized ground speed
wasn't as good as planned, I watched the revised ETA closely,
saw it was okay, and pressed on. In hindsight, if I had
diverted and took a break earlier, say around the 3-hour
mark, I probably would've been up for another leg and
perhaps would've been able to make better forward progress
that day.

We flew IFR that leg, but had to wait around a few hours before
leaving due to the fog that had HPN below minima. What we'd
intended for our lunch stop became the first overnight stop.

After that one, our legs were closer to 2.5 hours. There
were a couple of times I was glad to have the extra fuel
reserves. At one airport, there was a medical emergency
on a commuter plane. The approach controllers messed up what
had been a nice orderly sequence, and it took them about an
hour to sort things out.

I missed the approach into one airport on the way home because
about 10 things went wrong (most of which were compound interest
on my *mumble* mistakes) and they sent me to the back of the
line (which I richly deserved), which took an extra hour.

Flying into the Rockies (uhm, let me try to rephrase that)...
When we got to the Rockies, the plan was to go VFR and follow
the I-90. This allowed lower altitudes and provided
less-hostile terrain in the event of a forced landing.

Crossing the Cascades into Seattle, I had to go IFR. West
of the Cascades was VMC, but Seattle had its usual marine
layer. I took an airway that followed the I-90, decended
into the clouds around Snoqualmie Pass, and cancelled
once I got below the clouds.


> I could fly lower for the first two legs, but the MEA after DHT on leg
> 3 requires 10,000'. I would like not to have to carry oxygen if I can
> avoid it. Assuming decent weather is it ridiculous to think that this
> trip can be made in one long day? I'm not at all adverse to stopping
> for an overnight at OJC, but would like to try and do it in one day if
> possible.

It sounds like a pretty long day, even if the weather is totally
cooperative. My trip averaged two legs totalling about 5 flight
hours per day. Even IFR capable, we spent quite a bit of time on
the ground waiting to see what the weather would do. Next time,
I'll try to average 3-leg days, which would mean less dawdling in
the morning and shorter lunch stops.


HTH,

Morris

In article >, Journeyman
> wrote:

> In article >, Tom
> Fleischman wrote:

<snip>

> > I will be single-pilot IFR, will be flying a Beech Debonair and am
> > planning to file for a TAS of 165kts at 10,000'. I've broken the route
> > up into three legs of approximately 3.5 to 4 hours each.
>
> If you already know your route to that extent, you're already
> overplanning things. The catchphase for my flight was, "Okay,
> we need another plan". Fortunately, most of the time (but not
> always), I was saying it on the ground. You need to check the
> weather at each leg, and if the thunderstorms are to the North,
> plan the route further South (and vice versa).
>
> Make sure you have a full set of charts beyond what you think
> you might need. We had one chart that covered the entire U.S.
> which helped with our strategic planning every day.
>
> Most of our trip there was IFR with a couple of VFR legs; the
> return trip was mostly VFR with a couple of IFR legs.
>
> Of the two inflight diversions, one was due to arriving at
> the destination airport at the same time the thunderstorm
> did. Rather than circle, we went to another nearby airport
> that was clear. The other diversion was due to a failed
> alternator (broken wire, fixed within the hour and we were
> on our way).
>
> 4-hour legs will be taxing unless you have a cast-iron bladder.
>

<snip>

> > I could fly lower for the first two legs, but the MEA after DHT on leg
> > 3 requires 10,000'. I would like not to have to carry oxygen if I can
> > avoid it. Assuming decent weather is it ridiculous to think that this
> > trip can be made in one long day? I'm not at all adverse to stopping
> > for an overnight at OJC, but would like to try and do it in one day if
> > possible.
>
> It sounds like a pretty long day, even if the weather is totally
> cooperative. My trip averaged two legs totalling about 5 flight
> hours per day. Even IFR capable, we spent quite a bit of time on
> the ground waiting to see what the weather would do. Next time,
> I'll try to average 3-leg days, which would mean less dawdling in
> the morning and shorter lunch stops.

I have already decided to break this trip into 2 days and plan shorter
legs on Day 1. Of course in planning any trip one has to understand
that it is only a plan and that things are undoubtedly going to change
enroute. But you have to start somewhere. The longest trip I've managed
before this was a 4:20 min non-stop trip to Milwaukee in my club's very
fast Bonanza, and you're right, a long leg like that is very taxing. So
I've got some different fuel stops in mind, going both a southerly
route and an northerly route, with no leg longer than 3 hours. This
should also allow me to arrive at the high terrain east of Santa Fe
fairly early in the day.

I don't consider this overplanning, I'll be flying out IFR and I've got
to file something, right? Besides, it's fun, it's interesting, and I'm
enjoying it. I've found airports with both cheap fuel and good food
reports that fit the bill and allow for diversion and flexibility.

I can't wait.

Journeyman > wrote:
> If you already know your route to that extent, you're already
> overplanning things. The catchphase for my flight was, "Okay,
> we need another plan".

But, much better to have a plan that you discover you need to discard than
to not have any plan at all.

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in message
news:130320051206522311%> I don't consider this overplanning, I'll be flying
out IFR and I've got
> to file something, right? Besides, it's fun, it's interesting, and I'm
> enjoying it. I've found airports with both cheap fuel and good food
> reports that fit the bill and allow for diversion and flexibility.
>
> I can't wait.

The other I found was that the quality of the headset makes one hell of a
difference as far as fatigue is concerned. NR is great but not at the
expense of having your head in a vice for 4 hours at a time. Seriously the
noise can be tiring too.

In article >, Tom Fleischman wrote:
>
> I have already decided to break this trip into 2 days and plan shorter
> legs on Day 1. Of course in planning any trip one has to understand
> that it is only a plan and that things are undoubtedly going to change
> enroute. But you have to start somewhere. The longest trip I've managed
> before this was a 4:20 min non-stop trip to Milwaukee in my club's very
> fast Bonanza, and you're right, a long leg like that is very taxing. So
> I've got some different fuel stops in mind, going both a southerly
> route and an northerly route, with no leg longer than 3 hours. This
> should also allow me to arrive at the high terrain east of Santa Fe
> fairly early in the day.
>
> I don't consider this overplanning, I'll be flying out IFR and I've got
> to file something, right? Besides, it's fun, it's interesting, and I'm
> enjoying it. I've found airports with both cheap fuel and good food
> reports that fit the bill and allow for diversion and flexibility.
>
> I can't wait.

It's an awesome experience, highly recommended. Don't forget to post
your trip report when you get back. :-)

Sounds like you have the right idea. My impression from your initial
post that your planning was much more narrowly focussed (i.e. this leg
at that altitude). Now that's overplanning.


Morris

Tom Fleischman > wrote:
>route and an northerly route, with no leg longer than 3 hours. This
>should also allow me to arrive at the high terrain east of Santa Fe
>fairly early in the day.

High terrain can be overflown at 8500 ft VFR with no problems based
on your plan of LVS-TAFOY-SAF.

I do it frequently.

But then, living in Colorado, 8500 is the lower limit of my
regular cruising altitude.

Call me from HUT, I'll meet you in LVS and you can follow me. I'll
be in the white & green cherokee.

(*evil laugh*)

Tom Fleischman wrote:

> I don't consider this overplanning, I'll be flying out IFR and I've got
> to file something, right? Besides, it's fun, it's interesting, and I'm
> enjoying it. I've found airports with both cheap fuel and good food
> reports that fit the bill and allow for diversion and flexibility.
>
> I can't wait.

It's not overplanning at all. And, splitting it into two days will make it a
whole lot more enjoyable. In one day that third leg into SAF would be
bothersome, perhaps even a bit irriating. But, fresh the second morning it
will be a delight. Plus, given decent weather a morning flight westbound over
the mountains into SAF is a lot prettier than in the afternoon.

Blanche > writes:
> Tom Fleischman > wrote:
> >route and an northerly route, with no leg longer than 3 hours. This
> >should also allow me to arrive at the high terrain east of Santa Fe
> >fairly early in the day.
>
> High terrain can be overflown at 8500 ft VFR with no problems based
> on your plan of LVS-TAFOY-SAF.
>
> I do it frequently.
>
> But then, living in Colorado, 8500 is the lower limit of my
> regular cruising altitude.
>
> Call me from HUT, I'll meet you in LVS and you can follow me. I'll
> be in the white & green cherokee.
>
> (*evil laugh*)

A new aviation service: local native guide to lead the turista
through the jungle!

Everett M. Greene > wrote:
>Blanche > writes:
>> Tom Fleischman > wrote:
>> >route and an northerly route, with no leg longer than 3 hours. This
>> >should also allow me to arrive at the high terrain east of Santa Fe
>> >fairly early in the day.
>>
[some stuff that we've all read snipped]
>>
>> Call me from HUT, I'll meet you in LVS and you can follow me. I'll
>> be in the white & green cherokee.
>>
>> (*evil laugh*)
>
>A new aviation service: local native guide to lead the turista
>through the jungle!

Of course! I'll take Dove dark chocolate anyday! I'm not exactly
cheap, but I am cost-effective...

Tom Fleischman wrote:
> I'm planning a trip for mid-May from WHite Plains, NY (KHPN) to Santa
> Fe, NM (KSF). I'm wondering if anyone here has made a similar flight
> and has any advice for me.

You already have lots of good advice from people who know more than I do.
Nevertheless, I can't resist saying that long days, long legs, and 10000 foot
altitude are kind of hard on my old body. I wouldn't rule out supplemental
oxygen if you're going to be high for long periods.

Oh, and... I'm jealous.

Have fun.

Dave Butler > wrote:
> I wouldn't rule out supplemental oxygen if you're going to be
> high for long periods.

Perhaps it's just memories of mis-spent youth, but I'm wondering if
you really intended to mean what this appears to mean...

Roy Smith wrote:
> Dave Butler > wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't rule out supplemental oxygen if you're going to be
>>high for long periods.
>
>
> Perhaps it's just memories of mis-spent youth, but I'm wondering if
> you really intended to mean what this appears to mean...

I wondered which one of you reprobates would pick up on that. ;-)

Planning it to 3 digits is fine, but expect large variations vs. what
actually happens. It's a long trip and weather will likely be a factor
in at least one direction.

Having made similar trips many times in CD-939, I'd be surprised if
you would go west at 10K feet. That is seldom the optimum altitude
when going into a headwind. In fact, once in the mountains, it is
often
impractical to go IFR because they force you so high. You will also
find
that in many areas in the West that they make you fly well above the
MEAs even on victor airways. Complaining doesn't help.

So you experts: Can you demand to fly at the MEA? Often ice is
a determining factor. Really hoses up your planning.

And do use the O2. You are more goofy after some hours at 10,000
than you think. That's called euphoria.

Sante Fe is a great destination. It's over 6000 feet, so be sure to
check performance.

Bill Hale

In article om>, Bill
> wrote:

> Planning it to 3 digits is fine, but expect large variations vs. what
> actually happens. It's a long trip and weather will likely be a factor
> in at least one direction.
>
> Having made similar trips many times in CD-939, I'd be surprised if
> you would go west at 10K feet. That is seldom the optimum altitude
> when going into a headwind. In fact, once in the mountains, it is
> often
> impractical to go IFR because they force you so high. You will also
> find
> that in many areas in the West that they make you fly well above the
> MEAs even on victor airways. Complaining doesn't help.
>
> So you experts: Can you demand to fly at the MEA? Often ice is
> a determining factor. Really hoses up your planning.
>
> And do use the O2. You are more goofy after some hours at 10,000
> than you think. That's called euphoria.
>
> Sante Fe is a great destination. It's over 6000 feet, so be sure to
> check performance.
>
> Bill Hale
>

Thanks Bill, these are all good points and I will certainly consider
them.

And thanks to all the other posters in this thread as well. You've
confirmed my own planning and given some very good food for thought.

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in message =
c.com...
> In article om>, =
Bill
> > wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Sante Fe is a great destination. It's over 6000 feet, so be sure to
>> check performance.
>>=20
>> Bill Hale
>>=20
>=20
> Thanks Bill, these are all good points and I will certainly consider
> them.
>=20
> And thanks to all the other posters in this thread as well. You've
> confirmed my own planning and given some very good food for thought.

Adding another item -- The runways at the Santa Fe airport can be
fiendishly hard to see from a distance.
The pavement seems to blend in to the surrounding sand.
I'd suggest planning on an instrument approach regardless of weather.

Bill > wrote:
>often
>impractical to go IFR because they force you so high. You will also
>find
>that in many areas in the West that they make you fly well above the
>MEAs even on victor airways. Complaining doesn't help.

Bill:

the victor airway LVS-TAFOY-SAF has MEAs of 12.3 over LVS, 8.4 at TAFOY
and 11.3 at SAF.

However, let me reiterate...assuming VMC, there's no reason to file
IFR for LVS-TAFOY-SAF. It can safely and easily be done at 10.5 or
even 8.5 as VFR.

Now, if the weather isn't good, that's another story. But still, the
12.3 point in the LVS block is west of LVS itself. LVS itself is
only 6900. V60 to TAFOY then V62 to SAF avoids cumulo granite. It's
V190 and V263 that run right into them thar hills.

Second issue is "mountains". Those of us that live out here do not
fly "in the mountains" as a rule in a single engine aircraft. Well,
maybe in a Pilatus, but certainly not in my cherokee 180. Even
something higher performance will still require careful planning
and most people will head straight for the passes and not go
over the tops. The LVS-TAFOY-SAF route is very practical and a
wise choice for someone who's never been out here before.

There's a number of mountain flying CFIs on this list who can
provide more insight. There are a number of CAP pilots on this
list also, who *have* flown single-engine "in the mountains" out
here -- and they're very-very-very-VERY good and wise pilots.

John R. Copeland > wrote:
>Adding another item -- The runways at the Santa Fe airport can be
>fiendishly hard to see from a distance.
>The pavement seems to blend in to the surrounding sand.
>I'd suggest planning on an instrument approach regardless of weather.

Nah...Come right over the SAF VOR, follow the straight line over
the prison and there you are.

Helps to have the GPS on.

But the SAF tower is very helpful to the pilot that states "unfamiliar
with the area" and will guide you right in.

But then, just about every airport around here blends in with the
surrounding dirt.

In article >, Blanche
> wrote:
>
> the victor airway LVS-TAFOY-SAF has MEAs of 12.3 over LVS, 8.4 at TAFOY
> and 11.3 at SAF.
>

Hmmm...the chart I'm looking at (NAS) has an MEA of 10K between LVS and
TAFOY and 10K between TAFOY and SAF Vortac.

I understand that one can go lower VFR, but where do the altitudes you
quote above come from?

Tom Fleischman > wrote:
> wrote:
>>
>> the victor airway LVS-TAFOY-SAF has MEAs of 12.3 over LVS, 8.4 at TAFOY
>> and 11.3 at SAF.

>Hmmm...the chart I'm looking at (NAS) has an MEA of 10K between LVS and
>TAFOY and 10K between TAFOY and SAF Vortac.
>
>I understand that one can go lower VFR, but where do the altitudes you
>quote above come from?

I'm looking at L5/L6 IFR Low Enroute (ok, it's July 2003 but mountains
rarely move). The square with LVS has off-route obstruction clearance alt
as 15.3 and yes, you're right (my bad...I was reading the OROCA in
a generic mode as the MEA) the MEA is 10K. Oops is all I can say.

(*sigh*)

Sorry.

"Blanche" > wrote in message =
...
> John R. Copeland > wrote:
>>Adding another item -- The runways at the Santa Fe airport can be
>>fiendishly hard to see from a distance.
>>The pavement seems to blend in to the surrounding sand.
>>I'd suggest planning on an instrument approach regardless of weather.
>=20
> Nah...Come right over the SAF VOR, follow the straight line over
> the prison and there you are.
>

Not meaning to pick nits, Blanche, but coming "right over the SAF"
isn't greatly different from the VOR Rwy 33 approach.
That's roughly the same as I suggested.
We eastern pilots can get unnerved by being unable to see a runway
ten miles away in 50-mile visibility.
I remember once telling the SAF tower I could see the airport,
but not the runway. :-[

John R. Copeland > wrote:
>"Blanche" > wrote in message
>> John R. Copeland > wrote:
>>>Adding another item -- The runways at the Santa Fe airport can be
>>>fiendishly hard to see from a distance.
>>>The pavement seems to blend in to the surrounding sand.
>>>I'd suggest planning on an instrument approach regardless of weather.
>>
>> Nah...Come right over the SAF VOR, follow the straight line over
>> the prison and there you are.
>>
>
>Not meaning to pick nits, Blanche, but coming "right over the SAF"
>isn't greatly different from the VOR Rwy 33 approach.
>That's roughly the same as I suggested.
>We eastern pilots can get unnerved by being unable to see a runway
>ten miles away in 50-mile visibility.
>I remember once telling the SAF tower I could see the airport,
>but not the runway. :-[

Go ahead, pick nits...I deserved it...Since I don't fly into SAF
unless it's VMC, I never take the VOR approach...

And I can't count the number of times I've done go-arounds at
airports out here because I didn't see the runway until the last
minute and was too high, too fast or both. And sometimes, didn't
even see the airport....

"Blanche" > wrote in message =
...
> John R. Copeland > wrote:
> >
>>I remember once telling the SAF tower I could see the airport,
>>but not the runway. :-[
>=20
> Go ahead, pick nits...I deserved it...Since I don't fly into SAF
> unless it's VMC, I never take the VOR approach...
>=20
> And I can't count the number of times I've done go-arounds at
> airports out here because I didn't see the runway until the last=20
> minute and was too high, too fast or both. And sometimes, didn't
> even see the airport....
>

Oh, good. That means it's not just me. :-)
Tom Fleischman, take note!

In article >, Blanche
> wrote:

> Tom Fleischman > wrote:
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> the victor airway LVS-TAFOY-SAF has MEAs of 12.3 over LVS, 8.4 at TAFOY
> >> and 11.3 at SAF.
>
> >Hmmm...the chart I'm looking at (NAS) has an MEA of 10K between LVS and
> >TAFOY and 10K between TAFOY and SAF Vortac.
> >
> >I understand that one can go lower VFR, but where do the altitudes you
> >quote above come from?
>
> I'm looking at L5/L6 IFR Low Enroute (ok, it's July 2003 but mountains
> rarely move). The square with LVS has off-route obstruction clearance alt
> as 15.3 and yes, you're right (my bad...I was reading the OROCA in
> a generic mode as the MEA) the MEA is 10K. Oops is all I can say.
>
> (*sigh*)
>
> Sorry.
>

No problemo....thanks for all your input :)

In article >, John R. Copeland
> wrote:

> "Blanche" > wrote in message
> ...
> > John R. Copeland > wrote:
> > >
<snip>
> > And I can't count the number of times I've done go-arounds at
> > airports out here because I didn't see the runway until the last
> > minute and was too high, too fast or both. And sometimes, didn't
> > even see the airport....
> >
>
> Oh, good. That means it's not just me. :-)
> Tom Fleischman, take note!
>

Thanks, I have.